Being Evil

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:35 pm

Or perhaps they simply cannot rule the world if someone else blows it up.

It is very much possible to want to save the world for non altruistic reasons.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 pm

virgileso wrote:That kind of description you just gave isn't someone that wants to save the world, so much as they want to save themselves because they're on the world.

Then there's the other fact, people aren't walking avatars of their alignment. They can actually want good things here and there, and still be evil.

I"m sorry, that's semantics.

If I have to save the planet to save myself. Then I want to save myself.

If I have to save the planet to rule the fucking planet. I want to save the fucking planet.

Is any of this fucking clear.

Jesus...

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:02 pm

virgileso wrote:That kind of description you just gave isn't someone that wants to save the world, so much as they want to save themselves because they're on the world.

Then there's the other fact, people aren't walking avatars of their alignment. They can actually want good things here and there, and still be evil.

Evil people see future resources in everything. You don't just save yourself. You save yourself and all the stuff you might want in the future.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:05 pm

ubernoob wrote:
virgileso wrote:That kind of description you just gave isn't someone that wants to save the world, so much as they want to save themselves because they're on the world.

Then there's the other fact, people aren't walking avatars of their alignment. They can actually want good things here and there, and still be evil.
Evil people see future resources in everything. You don't just save yourself. You save yourself and all the stuff you might want in the future.

Thank you.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:14 pm

Evil people are evil because they break our cultural norms in a way we find harmful. A guy trying to stop The Rapture is evil, because The Rapture is supposed to happen.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:17 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Evil people are evil because they break our cultural norms in a way we find harmful. A guy trying to stop The Rapture is evil, because The Rapture is supposed to happen.

We talking the Christian Rapture? That was one of the most humorous things I found in my short time before I got fed up with Catholicism. Totally one of those, "You can't prove us wrong! Just wait a few more centuries! It'll happen!" things.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:48 pm

ubernoob wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Evil people are evil because they break our cultural norms in a way we find harmful. A guy trying to stop The Rapture is evil, because The Rapture is supposed to happen.
We talking the Christian Rapture? That was one of the most humorous things I found in my short time before I got fed up with Catholicism. Totally one of those, "You can't prove us wrong! Just wait a few more centuries! It'll happen!" things.

Isn't it more like serve us or suffer a fate worse than death? Which is all fine and good for evil... except they have a uber Bluff check.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:20 pm

Besides issues pointed by others: "gaze" means "passive area effect" and you feature seems to actually be neither; and I'd change the fear effect to require a successful attack (maybe add a radius limit as well, but it should be pretty large if any).

Also, this class for extra suggestions, though the version I meant to recommend was a prior one I don't have anymore - I suggest looking at Flamewarrior's (a.k.a. mine) comments.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:37 am

Bigode: you're quite right; the intention was for the VK to use only the "active attack" part of the "gaze attack" special ability and not the passive area effect. I quite literally just forgot to specify that when writing the description; I will fix it. I am planning on giving him a full-on gaze attack at later levels. Likewise, the fear effect was supposed to require a successful attack.

Many thanks for pointing those out!

It was very interesting reading the Dark Knight class; I was a little surprised (although I suppose I shouldn't have been) at how many of the abilities I gave the VK were essentially the same as the Dark Knight... especially as I've never actually played FFXI. It had never for a minute occurred to me to draw a parallel with the PSP FFT Dark Knight (which I have played extensively) because I just didn't - and still don't - see that class as having any thematic relationship whatsoever with the details in Aktariel's brief.

I meant to update the class yesterday, but work happened in a major way and I just didn't feel up to hitting the computer any more after a 12-hour working day! I'll get to it this weekend if I can manage it; I'll definitely incorporate people's suggestions/fixes to date at the very least.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:30 pm

Amra wrote:It was very interesting reading the Dark Knight class; I was a little surprised (although I suppose I shouldn't have been) at how many of the abilities I gave the VK were essentially the same as the Dark Knight... especially as I've never actually played FFXI. It had never for a minute occurred to me to draw a parallel with the PSP FFT Dark Knight (which I have played extensively) because I just didn't - and still don't - see that class as having any thematic relationship whatsoever with the details in Aktariel's brief.

You're welcome. AFAIK, that's because the FFT DK's crap, while the FFXI's drew stuff from the judges (or so I think). BTW, notice there's quite a difference between the classes' skill lists: I (since some of those were added at my suggestion) got from Shokorai's concept someone more used to urban exploration and investigation, and not really subtle, while yours' more of a hunter. But I sorta think the class could be able to be both, and still not feel too roguish (no mechanical skill, acrobatics, so on). And I readily admit I might have a personal bias against 2-word names, but why not "avenger" (especially with the abundance of "knight" classes)?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:05 am

The only DK I've seen was from X-2. It was pretty awesome though:

*Could cast Death and Petrify (only class in the game, IIRC)
*Immunities to the above
*Deathstrike and Stonestrike (above spells placed into sword attacks)
*Blindness/darkness attacks
*Damaging the self to really damage (and blind) all enemies
*Calling down a bunch of black meteors, because Square have a meteor obsession
*Sacrificing allies for power
*Draining HP

It was pretty cool.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:40 pm

Koumei wrote:The only DK I've seen was from X-2. It was pretty awesome though:

*Could cast Death and Petrify (only class in the game, IIRC)
*Immunities to the above
*Deathstrike and Stonestrike (above spells placed into sword attacks)
*Blindness/darkness attacks
*Damaging the self to really damage (and blind) all enemies
*Calling down a bunch of black meteors, because Square have a meteor obsession
*Sacrificing allies for power
*Draining HP

It was pretty cool.

Cecil, the main character of FFIV, starts off a Dark Knight. Basically, he got to use darkness-aligned swords and he got an ability which lets him sacrifice a bit of HP to shoot a wave of darkness.

Final Fantasy being what it is, a little ways into the game he becomes a Paladin.

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:47 am

In the recent DS remake, they changed his ability to a self-buff that allows him double damage for a short time in exchange for an irrelevant amount of HP.

It's worse against scrubby encounters, and more useful against boss fights.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:53 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:In the recent DS remake, they changed his ability to a self-buff that allows him double damage for a short time in exchange for an irrelevant amount of HP.

It's worse against scrubby encounters, and more useful against boss fights.

Sweet. So that plot-event Conversion-to-Paladin fight is now a straight-up fight?

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:35 am

Not quite, it's basically the same deal.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:20 am

Maxus wrote: Cecil, the main character of FFIV, starts off a Dark Knight.

Zoom in...

Cecil, the main character of FFIV

Zoom in...

Cecil

Cecil. What a stupid name for a Dark Knight.

"I am the Dark Knight... Cecil!"

I can't imagine him not speaking in a sort of "Bakura in YGO Abridged" English accent.

Anyway, the self-injure to fire a wave of darkness sounds the same as in X-2, yeah. And I don't own it, I just played a friend's copy. Mostly I liked it for the lesbicious undertones. I just want to make it clear that I don't think it was a good game.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:43 am

Koumei wrote:
Maxus wrote: Cecil, the main character of FFIV, starts off a Dark Knight.
Zoom in...

Cecil, the main character of FFIV
Zoom in...

Cecil
Cecil. What a stupid name for a Dark Knight.

"I am the Dark Knight... Cecil!"

I can't imagine him not speaking in a sort of "Bakura in YGO Abridged" English accent.

It gets even better...lemme see...

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/20 ... een002.jpg

That's the 3D render of him as a Paladin.

And he becomes a Paladin by fighting...himself, as a Dark Knight. And the Dark Cecil only uses that Dark Wave attack, so you win the fight by sitting there and healing yourself every turn.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:53 am

Holy shit, it IS Bakura! And stop the press, a Final Fantasy main character who is a guy that looks like a girl! Who'd ever imagine it?

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:24 pm

Koumei wrote: Anyway, the self-injure to fire a wave of darkness sounds the same as in X-2, yeah. And I don't own it, I just played a friend's copy. Mostly I liked it for the lesbicious undertones. I just want to make it clear that I don't think it was a good game.

See, I found the lesbicious undertones obnoxious, I just thought it was a fun game.

Is it a "good" game? Don't know. But I had fun playing it. Though I still haven't beat the last 20 floors of Via Infinito.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:08 pm

Wtf, Cecil didn't look like that 10 years ago.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:00 pm

Surgo wrote:Wtf, Cecil didn't look like that 10 years ago.

THat's right, he looked like the guy on the far bottom-right in the picture below.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:36 pm

Roy wrote:Or perhaps they simply cannot rule the world if someone else blows it up.

It is very much possible to want to save the world for non altruistic reasons.

I like that reasoning. I also think than mankind is basically lazy, but greed overcomes that. So well what happens is basically there are "evil" people who think they're doing good. Hell about 50% of all "cults" are groups of people who think that they're doing the right thing. So it is in D&D since there are Many Gods well morality is totally subjective, and by being MORE EVIL many people get a more positive afterlife than if they kept trying to be good and failing at it.
You could play batman, who even he has a support group, as a "badass anti hero" the butler and so on. It's valid.
You could also play as Dr.Doom who many, many times has worked with numerous individuals, and has saved the world (and others) on multiple occasions but ultimately is evil as he ultimately feels people should be in subjagation to him. I mean he's not the best team player but he does a lot of team ups with random people. . . and in the end has the goal or ruling the world.
....
but you can't really play as oh say.. the Joker, or Galactus cause they are examples of beings who really are intent on complete destruction of everything around them. Even if they're clearly on vastly different power scales, alignments, and base "intent".

Oddly it occurs to me that you could even play someon like "thanos" because thuogh he serves "Death" his plans are so grandoise and large scale that his daily life he goes about having adventures with people. He will actively "Stop" people from destroying all life in the universe, because well he wants to do it himself so that the entity "Death" will love him. So as long as you're not interfering with his ultimate plan:
1. Research for ultimate Life extiguishing artifacts.
2. Obtain means of collecting said artifacts.
3. Collect and activate said artifacts.
4. Kill at least half the life in the universe.
5. Win the "Love" of the Cosmic entity known as death
6. ???
7. Profit!
So it all depends on how you're doing things, in daily life.
I mean all of those folks are evil, but not all of them run around setting fire to kittens and orphanaages.